No, because that would be unprofessional. And 'Human nature' is no excuse for anyone to treat customers differently from one another. The role of the Police isn't to reduce the number of 'twats' about the place by disproportionately penalising those they personally consider to be twats. The police are there to enforce the law. And the law does not discriminate on grounds of personality. In fact, the whole point of the law is that it does not discriminate at all. You're either on the right side of it, or the wrong side of it. And those boundaries apply to all, be they twats or be they polite, conscientious, politically correct, deferential, community spirited "good citizens". Personality and demeanour should not determine the outcome of the enforcement process. Fortunately for those of us who have the sense to be polite when we are on the wrong side of the law, that discretion can be rather helpful. But really, it should make no difference. And all it does is work to surpress legitimate grievances for fear of the Police officer deciding that you're a tw*t because you dared question his/her infallible judgement, and consequently landing yourself with more undeserved sh*t to deal with. This is supposed to be a free country. Let people be twats if they want to be twats. And let's keep law enforcement concerned with the law, and nothing more.
It isnt against the law to have an engine at 3k RPM is it? so how exactly can you get a section 59 for it? If the exhaust is BSAU standard then its time for you to jog on. Sounds like a power mad personality trait has just arisen?
Brashy Unfortunately if I try p*ss off my customer/client I would be sacked almost immediately (they're the ones that pay me). Sure sometimes they can annoy you, but you need to just grin and bare it.
you are gonna argue no matter what. quite clear you dont live in teh real world. I have personally worked in jobs that reflect many of the liason duties an officer may encounter. And trust me, dealing with people day in day out who take an adverse reaction towards you because of your JOB for doing your JOB. The officer noticed something he deemed suspiscious because he deemed it to be strange. nothing wrong with that. Yet you beleive this is wrong. he then pulled Rob over to investigate. received an adverse reaction from Rob and of course he may be annoyed and wish to detain rob further to basically p*ss him off. same as the snotty loud customer may be made to wait longer to get served at the bar. or the loud fella in the cue for the nightclubs i worked on shoutin at the bouncer how long do i have to wait is gonna be made to wait and then refused entry. Its clear you are an exceptional human being furyous as you claim to have never treated someone differently because of their attitude towards you. I bet if a copper with a bad attitude pulled you over u would react to him differently than one with a nice attitude... POINT PROVEN! Human nature will always be a factor when dealing with any human because regardless of their job. They are still human.
There is nothing wrong with it, so long as the officer is prepared to be educated and apologise for the inconvenience caused to someone's life for doing precisely nothing wrong. Otherwise, yes, it is wrong. The fact that a bar worker ignores obnoxious customers is no way to justify a Police officer deliberately seeking a means of extra penalty for no other reason than the officer personally didn't like the way a person has reacted. If Rob were violent, sure. But Rob was voicing a legitimate grievance. For the officer to then use his discretion against Rob simply because he rightly disagreed and made his dissatisfaction clear, would have been very wrong. I'm not disagreeing with you for the sake of it, or for any personal reason. I'm disagreeing with you because I fundamentally disagree with the attitude you present in respect to the relationship between a police officer and a member of the public. Of course I treat people differently because of their attitude towards me: Though I tend to ignore people I don't like, rather than waste my time trying to p*ss them off. But I wouldn't dream of doing so in a professional capacity. As noted very concisely by Paul above, in the 'real' professional world, if you mistreat someone simply because you don't like they way they're speaking to you, you lose their custom. You may think that the Police are the Police and they have to be there, so there's no business to lose. But what the Police do lose by officers making their professional decisions on a personal basis is the respect of the public. The more respect lost, the more difficult Policing becomes on a wider scale. And whatever you may think, just like with any business, individuals will be held to account for unprofessional conduct when it has an adverse affect on the ability of the service to function. The Police are public servants. As a police officer, you're not disrespected because your job is unpopular. Your job is unpopular when and because the public don't respect the way in which it is carried out. Every single officer shares a collective responsibility for that. Which is why the Police must treat their 'customers' just as any business would, because the Police need the support of the public just as much as the public need the Police.
made me laugh this topic and has provoked a few reactions. Just out of interest who thinks they could do the job the police do ? i know i certainly couldn't nor would i want to. I have a few mates on the force, in different areas. One does cheshire traffic, other is a bobby in oxford, neighbour is serious crime. Every one of them are top guys and nothing but polite and decent people. If you met them out of work you wouldnt have a clue they were police. I spent 10 years living in northwales before moving back to cheshire, and even the northwales police (pre brunstrom era) were ace. You got to remember that brunstrom was despised by his own force, and that man has done more to damage the force as a collective than anyone else has for years. One thing i have learnt over the years, if you are doing nothing wrong, and are all legal, then you have nothing to worry about. Give some attitude or lip, or come over chavvy and it wont do you any favours. I am not saying you need to kiss ass, but some basic manners and positive gestures get you along way and will likely save you having a bad day. These guys are enforcing the law, they may not believe in it 100% or agree, but they have to enforce it. They are human just like everyone else, and a bit of respect goes a long way. Still all you need is one jobs worth wanker to undo all the good that the other 95% of decent coppers have tried to do.
i would never do that. i am far too tactfull. ie... walks into a customer's reception and gobbed an airwaves chewy. receptionist says "aren't you going to offer me one?" i reply "sorry luv, didnt think you had your own teeth" last week, again a receptionist, looking at me funny... i said what's up? she said "you have hairs coming out of your nose" i said "it's a bloke thing luv. you have hairs coming out your chin" always think about what one says before opening one's mouth so as not to cause offence.
EDIT: This is danny i didnt realise i was signed into jo's account the independant police complaints comision is there to deal with officers who you have a problem with. The officer has a queens warrent. and therefore should be shown respect regardless. Its this attitude that you have that is passed onto the younger generation who are the ones that will steal your bike and smash it up cos they dont fear the police anymore. And you will then complain they dont do enough. This is where hypocracy will play a part. I say yes sir no sir should be your reponse whether you agree with it or not, then use the ipcc if you dont.
It's not an attitude. It's an opinion. A pretty well grounded one as far as British democratic and constitutional history is concerned. Either way, I've obviously got that opinion, and I've never been inclined to steal a bike, or anything else for that matter (well, maybe a Biro). Besides which, you've got the whole thing ass backwards. People don't steal bikes (or whatever) because they don't 'fear the police'. People do morally wrong things because there's something more fundamentally wrong with them: They're terminally stupid, they're disenchanted with society, they're fucked up on drugs... whatever. Whether or not they 'fear the police' is irrelevant. The root cause of crime has nothing to do with attitude to law enforcement. The fact that someone might get away with something might encourage them to do it, but it isn't what drives them to want to do it in the first place. Treat the cause, not the symptom. Socio-economic issues and challenges are far more important in preventing crime than changing attitudes to policing. And as far as fearing the Police?! We're all supposed to fear the Police? Fear is a big word. You better get your thinking straight. Fortunately for us, we don't live in Nazi Germany, or Soviet Russia. This isn't a Police state. The police aren't there to enforce rule through fear. The law is there to deter by penalty. The police are there to apprehend criminals in accordance with the law. The judicial system checks whether the Police did their job properly. End of story. Fear doesn't come into it.
I beleive if you get off your high horse and pay attention to the younger generation you will find they steal a bike because they have no fear of reprisal, the police or respect for the LAW. they dont steal it and burn it cos they make money from it, they steal it and burn it cos they dont care cos what are you gonna do bar call the plod. And they have been brought up to not fear porosecution and to say things like f*ck the pigs and asshole coppers just cos they dont like being stopped and subjected to a roadside enquiry. the officer was doing his duty, his job and nothing more. Just because he did not know robs bike was cold and using a manual choke did not make him wrong. Robs attitude in that situation was wrong and I am sure if the copper had pulled a bike theif who had just taken robs bike off his path I am quite sure he would have not had teh same attitude towards the copper. You are clearly an idealist. you clearly havent worked in the front line as I have. I have 7 years of security and public liason under my belt (from guarding, to store detection, loss prevention, door supervising and Police liason) as well as the qualifications both in house and official. I have taken part in 50 plus arrests and almost 30 prosecutions of your so called socio economic bullshit. Kids dont steal because of that. they steal cos they dont care about what happens cos the fear that the LAW once instilled into people is gone because as adults lose respect cos it prevents them doing what teh WANT to do. So do their offspring. quite obviously you are a unique human being and instead of furyous I will now refer to you as Ghandi
Qft. Manners will get you everywhere in life, with police or not. The reason most young people don't 'fear' (or 'respect' if we're playing semantics) police is due to an attitude. The way a lot of young people talk, dress and act towards police is a pre judgement that has been enforced by their social groups, be that families or friends, that they should dislike them. Look at how many of them walk around with loweys and north face on and the abbreviation FTM. This extreme is obviously what Danny is talking about, I don't think he's suggesting that you personally would steal a bike. But if people like you add fuel to this flame and bring down the hierarchy of power (that's right, hierarchy! hail hitler! ), then everything would go to sh*t. I'm sure if you looked at statistics, the attitude towards police would correlate with the crime rate in that area. I do agree there is a drive for someone to weigh up if they can get away with committing a crime or not in the first place, but to be honest how many of us can honestly say we're never stolen anything? Again, as I've said, the ones most likely to steal your bike are the 'scallies', and due to the attitude they hold, if they think they can get away with something and they want to do it anyway, they will. The way to prevent that is either stop them thinking they want to do it, which as mentioned earlier, they're likely too far gone for and their social groups would not approve of, or to make them realise there will be consequences if they do, which will outweigh the gain from doing it. These consequences hold a 'fear', and the consequences are enforced by the police, in turn putting the fear in them. And honestly, I've lived in a bad area before, where all of this 'FTM' sh*t went on, and funnily, that's the area I saw the police getting called to most when they turn sour on each other. And I've saw people who've been absolute pricks to police treat them with respect, as every human should, no matter how they've inconvenienced someone in a minor manner.
Or one person with a stick up their ass cos they got detained for a few minutes to answer an enquiry by an officer served with a queens warrent that entitles him to make such enquiries based on a reasonable suspision using reasonable force based on his own judgement that has been evaluated by his superiors and deemed acceptable by their parameters.
Please read my previous post and inwardly digest: People do not do morally wrong things because they do not fear reprisal. They do those things because they're morally/socially bankrupt, or they're just plain stupid. Which makes it a matter of social/educational failing, not a matter of fearlessness. As for people saying 'f*ck the police' and 'asshole coppers'. Well, I'm not sure you're familiar with the concept, but it's called freedom of speech. We all have opinions, and nobody has the right to prevent each and every one of us from peacefully and legitimately expressing those opinions, whatever they may be, and whomever they may concern. As I said: If I suck at my job, I damn well expect to hear about it. As should any professional. So Rob was wrong for correctly pointing out the shortfall in the knowledge of the policeman? The officer should have been grateful for the education and apologised for the inconvenience. But, of course, he was entirely unable to swallow his pride and continued to treat a law abiding citizen with suspicion and contempt. You, by the sounds of it, would have seeked to punish Rob for an offence which he had not committed, simply because you didn't appreciate his (quite legitimate) defensive manner? Actually, I'm a realist. But I have ideals. And I stand by them. I'd never willingly give an inch of my freedom for the sake of a promise of greater social 'security'. If somebody can't get the job done with the powers they already have, get someone else who can. As above. You've got this ass backwards. This is a social problem. It has social roots. That is to say, people have a f**ked up moral compass. Admittedly it's a deeply ingrained, intra-generational, and immensely complex problem. But a shortfall in enforcement and 'fear' is not the cause, and nor is the inverse any real kind of solution.
im sure many of us have been stopped for no real reason on a bike, personally it doesnt bother me. ive only ever been pissed off when ive done something wrong (tad over speed limit), and its not the officer im annoyed at, its me. a 5 min inconvenience is just that. not the end of the world. to say it would cost you your job is nonesense. but i only use "yes sir", "no sir" etc when im in the sh*t! otherwise i just address them the same i would any other person doing their job.
"People do not do morally wrong things because they do not fear reprisal. They do those things because they're morally/socially bankrupt, or they're just plain stupid. Which makes it a matter of social/educational failing, not a matter of fearlessness." got to agree, the way i see it, a lack of fear towards either the police or the judicial process isnt the cause of crime. it means there is no deterrent, so the act is carried out. the underlying reason would still be there.
FTM? I'm guessing it's none of those. And loweys? Not a clue. Fear and respect are very different things. The police should be respected so long as that respect is earned and maintained. The police should not be feared, except by those on the run for crimes committed. As for the anecdotal stuff. Well, that's not the point. Just because the police feel they need to maintain a certain level of aggressive enforcement to keep the peace in certain difficult areas, it does not give them cause to treat any and all citizens with the same level of contempt, nor expect the same level of idiocy, or any level of deference.
freedom of speach is one thing, projecting oppinions is quite another. You really need to step out into the real world, drug dealers dont deal drugs cos they are morally/socially bankrupt, or they're just plain stupid they deal drugs cos its a quick way to make a quick buck and the consequences of getting caught are now far outweighed by the benefits of not getting caught. Kids dont steal bikes and cars for money, they steal em for fun cos they dont care what happens. and the group of kids who robbed 5 people at gunpoint in walton the other night didnt do it for that reason, they did it cos they can use FEAR against the weak. Police used to have the power and respect to go about their duties, but now they are so clouded and weighed down by paperwork and proceedure brought on by idealists like yoruself who beleive that they should be kind and polite and observe millions of rules and regulations day i and day out that they cant get on with their jobs the way police could when I was a child. I can assure you the lads who have twice tried to take my bike from outside mine do so because they can. because they arent scared of me, my dog or the police. And if succesful they will probably use my bike to taunt the police knowing that due to an idealist.. Merseyside police are forbidden to engage in an active persuit of a motorcycle that fails to stop and must only attempt to follow at a safe speed. so back to the original arguement.. If an officer stops me for revving my ninja loudly at lights i will gladly let him ask his questions, perform his checks, accept the paperwork and be on my merry way. If he takes an attitude with me then that is fine. let him. If I give him sh*t i fully expect him to find something on my bike that he can penalise me for. And his lack of knowledge about bikes might have been robs saving grace. cos last time i saw his bike he had a defective collector that required a new gasket and subsequently would have deemed his MOT invalid and a VDRS could have been issued as well as a section 59 for something that copper could have perceived to be anti social behavior. And all that could have come from Robs attitude towards the officer. As for the socio economic bollocks.. if you ever come face to face with a gang of lads who want your bike, car, phone or wallet.. explain that to them.. lets see if they give a f*ck. or that they just want ya stuff cos you cant do f*ck all about it except call the police...WHO THEY AINT SCARED OF ANYMORE!.
Regardless of all this it is my oppinion that A: Your attitude towards others will reflect theirs towards you whether they are police officers or bar tenders. B: Showing respect to an officer regarldess of theirs towards you could save you a ticket C: No matter what you beleive should happen. what actually happens is different and police officers do have the discretion to report you for an offence or let you off with a warning. If your a prick. your probably gonna get a ticket. Swap that officer with a traffic cop and Robs post probbaly wudda been about him getting a VDRS or section 59. He may have been lucky and gotten an inexperienced officer. Idealy things might be different. Realistically the few people who do choose law enforcement as a career may end up with an agenda against pre judgemental and obstructive/ abusive people.... thats just Human Nature.
...and here's me thinking the post was originally about someone being pulled for running their bike on choke, which is plain silly (and a waste of my tax money).
