Just a quick question. I noticed that there's different types of oils for our bikes. some very cheap and some not cheap..what do you think the defence is in these oils. besides the prices
I always say you get what you pay for with oil mate I watched a video with castrol vs bmw oil and when the bmw oil went through the heat cycles the amount of sludge and burnt oil it left was unreal and that is what blocks the oil feed channels and pick up pipe <br /><br />Sent from my GT-I9305<br /><br />
Many reasons why there are such ranges in price. Development costs, branding, amount of sponsorship dished out, etc, etc. Essentially all oils are made from the same base stock mineral oil, yes even 'fully synthetic'. The percentage of base oil varies depending on the additives added. Additives include but not limited to, anti frothing agents, water dispersant, anti shear (this helps prevent the oil being 'crushed' between gear cogs). Anti clogging, and cleaning detergents, also molecules that pick up the dirt and carry it around. So you end up with:- Mineral oil normally just shown as, oil, this will be the cheapest as it has fewer additives to enhance it's characteristics not the best for modern bike engines. Semi Synthetic, mineral base oil with various 'synthetic' (manufactured) additives to give good shear properties a more stable viscosity through the temp ranges. An excellent all round oil for modern bikes. Fully Synthetic, well it isn't as it still has a mineral base, but a high percentage of enhancing additives, More suited to engines that run high stress for prelonged periods. I used to run my ZX9r on Halfords semi synthetic oil and found no detrimental effects, it's cheaper but not inferior. Oil brands tend to be a personnal choice which can often depend on price.
BMW recommend Castrol according to the handbook! BMW use different oils for different bikes, the stuff the put into the air cooled lumps is supposed to be thicker as the engine is flat. Thinner oil would lead to them burning even more oil than they do as it is. In addition they use a dry clutch, and have a separate gearbox which uses it's own oil . Most other bikes need a thinner oil for the clutch and gearbox as well as the engine.
i use shitloads of oil at work - loads of different types, but mainly s46 mineral & synthetic, with the odd machine using 32 & 68 (viscosity) the 68 is usually used in piston compressors & for a while ive been toying with using it in the bike. it has the same, if not more additives - anti-foam, anti-shear, corrosion inhibitors & detergents, as found in the top line motor oils. some of this shit is like £13 - £15 A LITRE, with the long life, 8000hr synthetics costing double that for manufacturer branded stuff. these oils are formulated for use in high performnce, high output 'air ends' -which basically a screw pump, or air engine, with extremely close engineering tolerances, with a lifetime of 60 - 100,000hrs+. the temperatures and pressures are the same, if not higher than an internal combustion engine, so i see no reason why they cant be used in the bike, so that's what i'll be running this year.... and for the foreseeable future. regarding cheap oils - what's better, using expensive branded oil and doing one oil change a year, or using cheaper oils (for years ive used tescos oil and its bob on) and doing 3-4 changes a year. when i stripped the engine down there was absolutely no sludge, shelac or burning inside, so imo its just as good as the expensive shit. an engine's lifespan is highly dependant on oil changes!!!!! you do not want it running in treacle!
When I had my GT-R oil was a bit of a hot topic on the owner's forum. We found that Opies Oils were very, very helpful and knowledgeable - this is a thread they posted up after quite a few people asked the same questions: What’s written on your oil bottle and what does it mean? This post may seem like going back to basics but I am constantly surprised by the amount of people who do not know or understand what is written on a bottle of oil and therefore no idea of what they are buying/using. To be blunt about the subject, if a bottle of oil does not contain the following basic information then DO NOT buy it look for something that does! 1) The purpose for which it is intended (i.e. Motor oil, Gear oil etc) 2) The viscosity (i.e. 10w-40, 5w-30 etc for Motor oils and 80w-90, 75w-90 etc for Gear oils) 3) The specifications that it meets (should contain both API and ACEA ratings) 4) The OEM Approvals that it carries and the codes (i.e. MB229.3, VW503.00, BMW LL01 etc) Ignore the marketing blurb on the label it is in many cases meaningless and I will explain later what statements you should treat this with some scepticism So, what does the above information mean and why is it important? THE BASICS All oils are intended for an application and in general are not interchangeable. You would not for example put an Automatic Transmission Oil or a Gear Oil in your engine! It is important to know what the oils intended purpose is. VISCOSITY Most oils on the shelves today are “Multigrades”, which simply means that the oil falls into 2 viscosity grades (i.e. 10w-40 etc) Multigrades were first developed some 50 years ago to avoid the old routine of using a thinner oil in winter and a thicker oil in summer. In a 10w-40 for example the 10w bit (W = winter, not weight or watt or anything else for that matter) simply means that the oil must have a certain maximum viscosity/flow at low temperature. The lower the “W” number the better the oils cold temperature/cold start performance. The 40 in a 10w-40 simply means that the oil must fall within certain viscosity limits at 100 degC. This is a fixed limit and all oils that end in 40 must achieve these limits. Once again the lower the number the thinner the oil, a 30 oil is thinner than a 40 oil at 100 degC etc. Your handbook will specify whether a 30, 40 or 50 etc is required. SPECIFICATIONS Specifications are important as these indicate the performance of the oil and whether they have met or passed the latest tests or whether the formulation is effectively obsolete or out of date. There are two specifications that you should look for on any oil bottle and these are API (American Petroleum Institute) and ACEA (Association des Constructeurs Europeens d’Automobiles) all good oils should contain both of these and an understanding of what they mean is important. API This is the more basic as it is split (for passenger cars) into two catagories. S = Petrol and C = Diesel, most oils carry both petrol (S) and diesel (C) specifications. The following table shows how up to date the specifications the oil are: PETROL SG - Introduced 1989 has much more active dispersant to combat black sludge. SH - Introduced 1993 has same engine tests as SG, but includes phosphorus limit 0.12%, together with control of foam, volatility and shear stability. SJ - Introduced 1996 has the same engine tests as SG/SH, but phosphorus limit 0.10% together with variation on volatility limits SL - Introduced 2001, all new engine tests reflective of modern engine designs meeting current emissions standards SM - Introduced November 2004, improved oxidation resistance, deposit protection and wear protection, also better low temperature performance over the life of the oil compared to previous categories. Note: All specifications prior to SL are now obsolete and although suitable for some older vehicles are more than 10 years old and do not provide the same level of performance or protection as the more up to date SL and SM specifications. DIESEL CD - Introduced 1955, international standard for turbo diesel engine oils for many years, uses single cylinder test engine only CE - Introduced 1984, improved control of oil consumption, oil thickening, piston deposits and wear, uses additional multi cylinder test engines CF4 - Introduced 1990, further improvements in control of oil consumption and piston deposits, uses low emission test engine CF - Introduced 1994, modernised version of CD, reverts to single cylinder low emission test engine. Intended for certain indirect injection engines CF2 - Introduced 1994, defines effective control of cylinder deposits and ring face scuffing, intended for 2 stroke diesel engines CG4 - Introduced 1994, development of CF4 giving improved control of piston deposits, wear, oxidation stability and soot entrainment. Uses low sulphur diesel fuel in engine tests CH4 - Introduced 1998, development of CG4, giving further improvements in control of soot related wear and piston deposits, uses more comprehensive engine test program to include low and high sulphur fuels CI4 Introduced 2002, developed to meet 2004 emission standards, may be used where EGR ( exhaust gas recirculation ) systems are fitted and with fuel containing up to 0.5 % sulphur. May be used where API CD, CE, CF4, CG4 and CH4 oils are specified. Note: All specifications prior to CH4 are now obsolete and although suitable for some older vehicles are more than 10 years old and do not provide the same level of performance or protection as the more up to date CH4 & CI4 specifications. If you want a better more up to date oil specification then look for SL, SM, CH4, CI4 ACEA This is the European equivalent of API (US) and is more specific in what the performance of the oil actually is. A = Petrol, B = Diesel and C = Catalyst compatible or low SAPS (Sulphated Ash, Phosphorus and Sulphur). Unlike API the ACEA specs are split into performance/application catagories as follows: A1 Fuel economy petrol A2 Standard performance level (now obsolete) A3 High performance and/or extended drain A4 Reserved for future use in certain direct injection engines A5 Combines A1 fuel economy with A3 performance B1 Fuel economy diesel B2 Standard performance level (now obsolete) B3 High performance and/or extended drain B4 For direct injection car diesel engines B5 Combines B1 fuel economy with B3/B4 performance C1-04 Petrol and Light duty Diesel engines, based on A5/B5-04 low SAPS, two way catalyst compatible. C2-04 Petrol and light duty Diesel engines, based on A5/B5-04 mid SAPS, two way catalyst compatible. C3-04 Petrol and light duty Diesel engines, based on A5/B5-04 mid SAPS, two way catalyst compatible, Higher performance levels due to higher HTHS. Note: SAPS = Sulphated Ash, Phosphorous and Sulphur. Put simply, A3/B3, A5/B5 and C3 oils are the better quality, stay in grade performance oils. APPROVALS Many oils mention various OEM’s on the bottle, the most common in the UK being VW, MB or BMW but do not be misled into thinking that you are buying a top oil because of this. Oil Companies send their oils to OEM’s for approval however some older specs are easily achieved and can be done so with the cheapest of mineral oils. Newer specifications are always more up to date and better quality/performance than the older ones. Some of the older OEM specifications are listed here and depending on the performance level of your car are best ignored if you are looking for a quality high performance oil: VW – 500.00, 501.00 and 505.00 Later specs like 503, 504, 506 and 507 are better performing more up to date oils MB – 229.1 Later specs like 229.3 and 229.5 are better performing more up to date oils. BMW – LL98 Later specs like LL01 and LL04 are better performing more up to date oils. FINALLY Above is the most accurate guidance I can give without going into too much depth however there is one final piece of advice regarding the labelling. Certain statements are made that are meaningless and just marketing blurb, here are a few to avoid! Recommended for use where…………… May be used where the following specifications apply…………… Approved by………………………..(but with no qualification) Recommended/Approved by (some famous person, these endorsements are paid for) Racing/Track formula (but with no supporting evidence) Also be wary of statements like “synthetic blend” if you are looking for a fully synthetic oil as this will merely be a semi-synthetic. Like everything in life, you get what you pay for and the cheaper the oil the cheaper the ingredients and lower the performance levels. If you want further advice then please feel free to ask here or contact us through our website at www.opieoils.co.uk. Cheers Simon
It's just generally an explanation about oils, grades, differences etc. Was originally written for a car forum but the basics (viscosity, temp range, synth/semi/mineral etc) all still applies.
FWIW I've always found Opie Oils to be ridiculously helpful and I didn't even realise that they supply bike oils too: http://www.opieoils.co.uk/c-338-motorcycles.aspx They'll also discuss specific and individual oil requirements with you for personalised oil recommendations. I've been taking their advice on oils for my BMW engine/gearbox/diff, with particular interest in what's best for an LPG-fitted engine...
he posts offers over on the vtr site - multi buy deals, free postage etc - i'll ask him to join here eh? seeing as a lot of us are buying his stuff anyway.... why not get it cheaper! http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=27871 i just dropped him a mail and asked him to reg here. makes sense to have an expert opie nion on the subject eh.
Yep they do a good service but when checking for my last lot of oil (Motul 10/50) they were the same price as Demon Teeks. :huh:
It's not always just about the cheapest price, Doofle. I'd gladly pay a few quid more and get good advice and service. Just try going to Demon Tweeks and asking them about the shear properties of semi-synthetics and the molecular changes in different oils under pressure/temperature stresses... Good advice and knowledge is worth it's weight in gold, bur as a country we seem to object to paying for it, which confuses me.
This is me all over but its mainly because i feel we are paying for it in every way so a penny saved sometimes is just plain nice. But Also i would pay extra if i came with a bit of advise.
Absolutely, Mike. I'm not saying go pay premium prices just for the sake of it but if it costs a little more to buy something from someone who also gives you the benefit of years of knowledge and experience then it's worth it if the consequences of making a mistake otherwise are potentially serious, if not disasterous. All I'm saying is that here in the UK there seems to be a general assumption that there's an expectation to free advice. I've got 15 years experience in the financial sector and have studied for many hundreds of hours and taken dozens of exams to be able to give financial advice to clients. Yes I can arrange their life insurance, pension, ISAs etc. but my job is primarily helping and advising people, and sometimes as a result we put new arrangements in place but often we don't. It gets my goat when people think that the only value I give in my job is actually doing the paperwork to put a plan in place, and the advice I give should be free. The idea that someone should be able to earn a crust for giving guidance and that people should be expected to pay for that seems lost on most people. Until things go wrong, that is - usually by which point it's too late to do anything about it. On more than one occasion I've recommended a client insures themselves against redundancy or being unable to work due to injury, only for them to decline the recommendation. Little while later I get a call "I've been given notice that I'm being made redundant - can I take that redundancy cover out now?" or "I've had an accident and won't be able to work for 3-6 months - can you sort that cover out for me?" Errrrrrr no. Unless you happen to have a Tardis and we can go back in time. *shakes head* Unfortunately the inconvenient truth is that most people only learn the true value of good advice and experience once they've suffered because of a lack of it.
